No matter how I say this someone is going to get pissed off and wrongly assume something which was not meant or even inferred in my words and thoughts. I don’t mince words, anyone who knows even one thing about me, is aware of that, but neither am I reckless in what I say.
I find no point in being what some perceive as confrontational. Sorry, but I just come from a culture which speaks its mind and considers that an honest and good way to be, as it keeps misunderstandings to a minimum, IF (a very crucial ‘if’) the other person or group has an open-mind and is not quick to jump to conclusion. We consider it somewhat dishonest and false to always make the show of being diplomatic or not speaking your mind even if it is opposite to what the other person has said. I suppose if I do want to make a point about anything, it is “don’t assume.
Don’t assume the other person shares your own thoughts, feelings, society, culture, way of life, course of action…or any other such thing. Don’t assume they are trying to put you down, criticize you…you get the idea, don’t you?
That being said. TOPIC: Women writers of gay or m/m fiction.
Last night on one of my publishers writers forums, someone expressed their feeling of surprise there were so many straight women writing m/m fiction. Hmph, first, that term m/m suggests to me “we’ve” been reduced to merely sexual terms, objects, a quick reference and voyeuristic glance at a porno you don’t quite want to see head on. It vaguely bothers me, honestly. I’m going to use in this entry though, for the most part, because it more accurately suggests my continued feelings on this subject.
Why so many straight women writing gay fiction or erotica?
1st answer? Because they can. Whether they do it accurately or well, to some male readers views, it’s grown more socially acceptable and its the “hot” thing to do these days. It’s a secret thrill, a hobby, a sexy game being played to get kicks.
Sound a little asinine? It isn’t. Step back. Think about it. Even if you might use different words or descriptions, isn’t that basically what it is for hundreds, thousands, maybe millions of straight women dabbing in the m/m genre? Be honest. I didn’t say it was a bad thing. It’s just a thing.
2nd answer? Because publishers have monitored, researched, gathered information, properly analyzed it and saw the trend forming and demand rising for m/m fiction. Naturally, they responded. They need their slice of the cake too, since it’s all big and fancifully decorated and sitting right there in the middle of the table. They would be stupid not to, or devoted to another genre.
Correlation? Vampires. Vampires are now über cool. Undead/zombies, werebeasts, all kinds of ugly bumps in the dark made into handsome and lusty creatures.
As I told someone else, I might be newer on the scene as a published writer in a wider market, but I am not new to book selling, editing or publishing. I’ve just mostly worked behind the scenes. Working with writers on edits, etc. and having the opportunity to talk to them. Even a few of the easily recognized names in America, and once I questioned why suddenly, though they’d made their breakthrough in another genre, suddenly they were writing vampire crap. The writer sighed, and admitted it was not what they wanted to do but in order to keep their “job”, they were now required to write them because that’s what the publisher said most of the readers were asking for.
Get the connection? It’s popular now, so “everyone” is getting their slice.
“I was country, when country wasn’t cool”…Remember that song from the 70s or early 80s? I can’t quite remember, and that’s the only line I do, I was a little kid at the time, but that phrase people who didn’t even listen to country music got.
I read the female writers saying how they began in fanfiction or reading yaoi. It gave them ideas. That’s cool. After all yaoi is written primarily by women for women. That’s the crux of the matter, a key, key crux. The majority of m/m fiction flooding the market is by women also, or it’s getting there. I don’t have any statistics.
I have my copies of some of Mel Keegan’s books from years ago on my shelf. I’ve read yaoi for years, and just some of the m/m fiction these days, though I discarded and shook my head over most of it also. In yaoi, some female writers and artists were superlative in their stories and characters. Most, in my opinion, were not. They simply overlaid male characters onto a hetero story template and it came off looking stupid, one-dimensional and in some cases objectionable to me, because it was so false. Sure it’s fiction, but at least make it good, believable, engaging or something!
The same problem I had with it, I have with the majority of m/m fiction: it’s just seems a game to them, and it’s being played badly. It’s being played commonly. I suppose the word most apt to me when I think about it is hollow. So many of these stories seem hollow. Sure you want to explore your ideas and write about gay or bisexual men and their loves and relationships and it’s flooding the markets. Overrunning I think, in some instances, drowning out the more unique voices. Kinda like someone writing about what they don’t know, just what they imagine, what they’ll never know, but they make up the parts they don’t.
Hating on? Nah, not at all.
Correlation? Historical fiction. Colleen McCollough does not and did not live in ancient Rome, but she wrote some hella good novels. She did her research, she developed the right feel for it, and she created outstanding pieces of literature. Same thing with Jean Auel and her “ancient” humans series. She might be older but she ain’t that old!
In the same way, some straight women or other females can do their research, get the feel for it, and create outstanding gay fiction (NOTE: I used the different term!). It can be done. It has been done. It will keep being done, and I salute their efforts.
Some women and other females can half do their research, not have the correct “feel” for it and create some of the most stupid and infuriatingly bad representations of “gay” fiction which I term m/m.
Yes, the same can happen in other genres also, from romance to sci-fi. An example, Kevin J. Anderson’s attempt to create visionary future worlds in the manner of Frank Herbert. Über fail. Legend in his own mind.
It’s the same with gay fiction, however, many of the reviewers, publishers, etc. cater to women and their tastes, and even many of the men. Therefore this directly affects what is “on top”, as it were. In sci-fi if someone writes a “bad” book, reviewers are going to tell them. Readers are going to tell them, and usually in no uncertain terms. It seems a lot of patting on the back in m/m, they read each others books, they write reviews heaped with praise, they are in the same circles and play back and forth with each other, so there you go. I keep hoping for objectivity. Hoping to see some evidence of it.
Maybe I’ve done too much editing, too much reading in a professional capacity. I give an honest review from my perspective of course, but I was taught in the manner of “anything you say even if it is a negative point, can be said in a positive way”. I very much limit my reviewing. I probably need to limit my honesty also if I want to keep any friends in the (yes I’m smiling in a wicked way) “m/m” or gay fiction world. I should likely delete this article too because I am certain I’ll see my follower and friends list totals drop. But I can only be myself in this.
Sour grapes? Nah, not at all. I literally have several dozen stories I’ve completed. I could have submitted them years ago, could submit them now. It is not a priority for me, not a driving need. I love my characters and sitations, my stories, but most of them are based on experiences in my life, the more painful ones, so it’s like putting myself out there. I’m not on anyone else’s timetable. My standards are my own. The novels I am working on may one day be completed, maybe they won’t. They may get out there, and no one or few people like them. That’s really irrelevant to me. I like them, and that’s what matters most. They are my characters, my worlds. That I don’t have lots of work out there, that I don’t do a “chatty cathy” in groups, that I don’t wholesale add or follow everyone I come across…are all indicative of my personality, which is distinctly loner when I am in the USA. Ask my mother, I’ve never been compliant at any time in my life, or easily understood, or for that matter, liked. I’m used to it. Doesn’t keep me quiet.
Nah, don’t delete it. I’ve read posts hating on m/m and women writing m/m and this isn’t hating on.
And while I’m not going to pretend to understand why people would want to read story after story about vampires, those same people probably don’t understand why I’d watch true crime shows all day over the weekend. We all have our things.
You got it. Thank you.
Nothing wrong with honesty. I believe the Bard said it best with ‘to thine own self be true’. As for myself, I write what I love and always try to do my best. However it is perceived, it comes from the heart, and is a part of me. Good luck with your endeavors.
Immer, as we say, “always”. Good luck to you also.
Absolutely don’t delete it. It’s an honest expression of how you feel, and that’s cool. :-D
I’m too contrary to delete it at this point :-)
I couldn’t agree more with everything that has been written, and will echo Clancy’s observation with a variation of a famous movie quote: M/M authors are like a box of chocolates; maybe you won’t like all of them, but you’d be foolish not to take a bite (pun intended) out of one or two. ;)
Great quote, and quite true I agree. An important thing to do, would never want to miss the hidden gem.
Interesting article! Please don’t delete…
If you read my response on the DSP thread, you’ll see that I’m of the “I was country when country wasn’t cool” group and haven’t just jumped on the bandwagon because writing about gay or bisexual men is the in thing at them moment. I’m a technical writer as part of my job and sure that I have a long way to go in finding my voice in fiction, but I truly hope that writing my almost lifelong (35 years of it, anyway) favorite genre doesn’t offend anyone out there :)
Who knows what psychological reason lies behind it, but I read and write what I’m most comfortable with and that is gay and bisexual men.
I suppose my view, is whoever it is, do it well please, because I think it’s a beautiful subject and deserves it: gay/bi love, relationships, etc. as problematic as they can be, just like any other. All kinds of gay fiction, sure, styles, range (from light to heavily erotic or explicit).
I agree – well done is the key. I loved this statement in your piece, “They simply overlaid male characters onto a hetero story template and it came off looking stupid, one-dimensional and in some cases objectionable to me, because it was so false”. It’s the authors who write like this that I have a hard time reading – where one half of the male couple is simply the heroine of a straight romance with the gender changed.
I suppose that goes back to the “written by women for women”, maybe some stories are more, and that’s acceptable. I, for one, just have to remember and be aware of that.
Hi Red
Interesting article and I agree with you on the parts I feel qualified to agree with you (not being a homosexual male). I am interested in this bit: In the same way, some straight women or other females can do their research, get the feel for it, and create outstanding gay fiction.
I get the feeling one of the problems besetting the m/m genre reflects the changes in the homosexual community itself. Not too long ago (and still is in some parts of the world) the right to be gay was something that needed to be fought for, so being gay itself was an important aspect of the equation. In my research for “Mardi Gras” and in which amongst other things I followed Letters to the Editor of the gay online newspapers in Australia, more and more homosexuals don’t want to be defined by their sexual preferences. They just “are” the way they are. For example there is debate about our equivalent of your Pride Parade emphasizing the “difference” and therefore being seen by the het population as exotic or unusual, many want to be seen and accepted as “the same.”
Would writing “gay romances” therefore which reflect this reality in relationships and desires, with gay people being seen no different than non-gays (not stereotypes of super-sexed gay men as many are) be successful?
Alison
I think that is a quite a point, the change in the gay community itself. Very certainly depends on that community and locale also.
For myself, though I don’t think I spoke about that in this article, I have spent my formulative “out” years in Berlin. One of the biggest gay cities in the world, where it is a “non-issue”, you just are. You are people. Gay is gay, it is no big deal, and neither is any other kinds of sexual activity or choices as long as it’s legal, and most things are. As I said to someone else, one week you kiss a boy, the next you kiss a girl, it is of no comment. It just is. It’s a tremendous freedom not having your sexuality questioned, challenged or the need to prove, hide or defend yourself all the time.
As I am active in LGBT issues in Europes, very, very much so in places like Latvia, Macedonia, Estonia, Russia there is very much death on the line to “be” what you are. In Berlin there are many gays who have fled there to escape the oppression.
Conversely, when I am in the US, in combination with the continued over religiousness and aggression, the necessity of secretness has created so much of a secret highly sexualized society where things like writing or “private” acts are frenzied because of the repression levels, the need to “hide” what you are. I mention conversely because as you say, within the gay community some who are “out” have reacted with a stronger need to demonstratively BE what they are. Although I may not agree with the methods, yes we are sick and friggin tired of heteros defining us by our sexuality when no one questions them when they start dating someone or want to get married. Some of the stories reflect that continued attitude, and though it is their choice, I think some of the female writers (and males too sometimes) don’t realize they are keeping the stereotypes alive.
When I write, some of my stories anyway, I have a problem saying what the genre is. To me, it is simply romance or drama or historical fiction. To have to apply “gay” to it just because the main characters are both males, is frustrating. I don’t like the idea some people dismiss a love story or drama because it has gay characters, as if our love is less.
Thank you for your response. I enjoyed to read it.
I respect you for your work, Red. The struggle still goes on and some people tend to forget that.
I think one of the things that everyone needs to appreciate, welcome and celebrate is diversity. Within the gay community and outside it.
There are so many hang-ups of pairings because of sex, race, age difference, appearance. If people celebrated diversty instead of fearing it, the world would be a much happier place. (Which is the theme of my book, lol)
It’s harder to do than it appears. We’re all guilty of “us” amd “them” to some extent. Hey, but I’m working on it.
That is it exactly. We are all guilty in some form of “us” and “them” and certainly of having some prejudices, small or large. Things we’re aware of and sometimes not. It’s the honesty (or dishonesty) about those things that I’ve experienced so much in life.
Living Germany, in appearance and by law people are far more tolerant. It doesn’t mean they don’t have their prejudices and problems, etc. They do. The difference is the determination to be tolerant. Someone may not like a gay Turkish person (I’m being random) but they will not say they should not be allowed to do what they wish. You would only find it out if you pointedly asked them also. In other places, it seems the “god given right” to bash others, make broad laws based on personal beliefs and promote inequality by acccepting and encouraging lack of diversity.
As you said, it has also come to be in the popular writing as it inevitably had to since people’s writing can often reflect the society in which they live.
You’ve brought up some interesting points. I completely understand your honest words. As the old phrase goes “Jetzt werde ich mit ihm Deutsch reden müssen”. I am especially interested in your point about het stories overlaid with gay characters. I am not a reader of het romances, or romances of any kind actually and would be interested to know what those pitfalls might be.
In contrast to you, I am rather active politically for LGBT causes and if I am to put forth the argument for equality based on the principle that love is love and when two people build a relationship together it does not matter what the genitals look like I tend to write “a story” not a “romance” or a “gay romance”.
Sorry I misread a line in your post. I should say, “Like you, I am politically active in LGBT causes.”
Quite agreed love is love. I really fail to see the reasons for labels and differientation, though I know much of it is based on sociological issues, religion, institutions, government, etc. It’s passing strange, yes.
I’m bi and writing gay romance / erotica. Primarily, I’m a writer, though. My personal experiences do inform my stories, but so does a heck of a lot of research. I’m pleased to have read your posting. I wish more authors and readers would give their honest opinions, as I want to write well and for as wide an audience as possible. I also want to write stuff that touches people, whatever their gender and orientation. In a way, what I write is a political act in and of itself, because my intention is to make people think, rather than to reinforce stereotypes and prejudices. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you for your comment. It brings up a topic I was reading a forum discussion about, where someone mentioned that it was their form of “political activitism” to write gay erotica. I don’t know them personally, or pretend, to but from their comments it made me further ask the question: “How does their writing gay erotica make “other people” understand gay love and life better?” Since it seemed to be their suggestion that they, a straight women, writing gay erotica would make other straight people or those against homosexuality more willing to accept it because they did.
I’m sorry I didn’t get from point A to point B to then find point C from their comment. People against it are no more likely to accept it because a straight woman was writing a story about “gay love”, to me it seemed less likely honestly. But I could go around the wheel on that topic. It just seems a kind of defense topic, a justification, to prove something to someone instead of just being honest and saying, “I write it because I friggin’ want to”, and leave it that. That I can accept easily, the other explanations and protestations…make me wary. It reminds me of those who strongly try to justify almost what they deeply feel to be ashamed of, because at the heart of them, they feel rather defensive.
I believe I come closer to understanding why you say it is political for you.
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M/M fiction by female writers seem overly emotional – it is just not how a man thinks about relationships or how they deal with emotion. It was like Sex in the City first movie. It was so full of female emotion and angst that I think the majority of males could not identify with it. I feel the same way about female M/M fiction. It is dreadful to read and it will put me off M/M fiction, I swear! Please Stop! Write what you know!
Everyone has their opinion and rightly so, but I didn’t label all m/m fiction written by females in the same category. Some wrongly believed so, took it personally, and verbally attacked and wrote about it elsewhere and seemed to try to correct me here. Although I never personally read any of the comments elsewhere, though I would say I was distinctly given the “cold shoulder” by a number of who chose to judge me on the topic without knowing or having ever interacted with me personally, to the point someone I hadn’t even heard of wrote this: “In Defense of Red Haircrow,” a link to Angel Martinez’s blog.
And by the by, though she questioned my use of the term “females” in my comments at the link, I urge her and others to think outside of the gender roles/stereotypes so many are bound by. When necessary, I use “female” to differentiate between someone who was/is natally female (born female) and someone who is a woman (even if they were not). I know a lot of women who are not genetically female because that is how they think of themselves, and that works for me. You see how easy it is for people to judge wrongly without considering the other person’s individual views and life?
In any case, I stopped reading m/m fiction in general because most of what I read did not represent accurately the emotions, motivations and behaviors, etc of gay men, love and life from my own experience and the majority of the men I’ve interacted with. There may still be some good out there, I’m sure of it, but I just got disappointed too many times when I was seeking to find work I could identify with. I am much more open to reading gay fiction when that is the genre it is listed as. In my experience, that can make a difference, though some male writers choose to market their work as m/m. I have no issue with someone else doing so. To some m/m is suggestive of the level of sexually explicit content.
Actually had a couple of reviews for one story from disappointed readers who liked it, but said it wasn’t m/m because there wasn’t enough sex, but that was how it had been marketed and labelled by some of the other readers. I clearly and applicably state it is gay fiction. Another publisher labelled one of my stories as gay erotica, when it totally was not, seemingly because it had two men beginning a relationship in it, and it too received negative remarks because of lack of expected sex content. So maybe the wrong assumptions by readers is another facet of the issue, plus m/m is still growing with ebook pubs popping up to take advantage of the reader market, while gay fiction as a genre isn’t as popular. Consider this as being indicative of what certain groups are looking for regarding gay men: sex, not necessarily story, but if a story is okay and if it involves two men and has lots of sex, its even better. As a small publisher with clients, I directly ask the writer how they wish their work labelled by my brand.
As far as writing what you know, in one of my upcoming releases one of the characters is Russian and part of the story takes places in Russia. I am not Russian though I’ve visited that country a few times, worked towards learning the language, spend a lot of time with certain Russians and had proof my manuscript. They liked it. I think it can be dependent on how you represent the characters, topics and culture, etc. I think the problems come into play when some of a group feels misrepresented combined with writers saying it is just “creative license.” Sometimes the passionate response is high because a group feels the writer doesn’t have the right to write on “them”, whether they are misrepresented or not. There are a lot of angles to it. Basically I think the female writers who are so sensitive or get so offended when people voice their opinions should accept this is reality. In the same vein, when you have “white” writers writing about blacks or Indians, trying to use what they perceive as their “voice” or culture, they are going to get objections from someone. That’s life.
Was discussing on a Native American group forum board a few days ago a topic posted by a writer “What about whites writing about Indians?” And basically my comments are in the same vein. It depends on how its done. I am Native American, have read a lot of bad and wrong interpretations of Indian history, traditions, and cultures but some non-native writers have done a great job, and I enjoyed their work. There were replies by some Indians who didn’t like it, and I could understand both sides of the issues, just like in this one. I think it’s important to respect everyone whether it’s in what you write or how you act.
It’s funny you mention Sex in the City. I never had any interest in female life of that sort or social level, and certainly not hearing their opinions on sex, so I’ve never seen any of the tv series or films. It wouldn’t occur to me to choose to view any of it, though plenty of people do like it obviously, majority females but some men also.
My other reply was general, but to be very specific about the search terms that lead you here: female writers of gay erotica…I can understand why you said “write what you know.” It’s a credible point, and in using myself for example, I have no experience as a female in order to write lesbian erotica. I have minimal experience as a male with a female to write heterosexual erotica, so yes, I would not write lesbian erotica, and unlikely heterosexual erotica, although I could understand some of the emotions and present them, in certain situations, as possibly believable. No, I don’t believe, for those objectors, that if you have a really, really good imagination you can do it anyway, i.e. female writers writing gay erotica. Well you can, and yes, you can fool some people, usually those how do not have the direct knowledge as you suggest, or those who don’t care as much for authenticity, but it doesn’t make it credible to those who really know unless they choose to excuse the inaccuracies.
Some female writers of m/m are very sincere in their endeavors and wishes. Some are wishing to cash in on the popularity of m/m fiction and churn out work, right or wrong, and it is sucked up. Hey, it is satisfying a need for some, so why not? But when I want really authentic, important, believable, knowledgeable works about gay life and living, that is not where I look, but then I wouldn’t expect to find it either.
Like any other genre, read the authors you’ve found you like. Research, listen to those who know you personally who might recommend, and then be open-minded to story ideas that may appeal to you under the headings you’ve found appeals to you. I am an avid sci-fi/fantasy fans since I was old enough to read, but many these days within those genres I don’t care for their writing style or topics, but I don’t down the whole genre. I am just selective. If it was within a sub-genre of the topic, I would probably be even more careful.